Vividcon 2003 -- Vidpairs show.
Aug. 24th, 2003 11:00 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wickedwordsWow, did this get
I volunteered to sit door for this show, because I thought it would be interesting and I figured not a lot of people would go. From what I had heard muttered around before the panel, this was probably the most feared show that was presented, at least from the vidders as viewers perspective. (The premiers' show is the most anxiety producing show from the vidders as vidders perspective, at least IMO.) I heard a lot of people express different reasons for not going to it, but my rant is about how it was the most transgressive of the panels because it violated one of the old time vidding laws: thou shalt not vid a song that someone else has vided.
(The theory here is that there is only one chance for someone to see a vid for the first time, and that if the viewer has already been exposed to the song, they are forever spoiled. The next vid with that song will have something to compete with, and there's never a chance for that 'first time' again. And even if a song hasn't been vidded before, if it's received too much airplay, the audience is spoiled again. Only a virgin audience can truly appreciate a good vid.)
As you can tell, that's not one of my favorite beliefs. My own fannish belief system says that authenticity is what is important, and as long as a vidder can take a song and make it authentic to the characters and the fandom of their choice, that's baseline for me. I want vids with emotion, and I want them to feel authentic. It's the same sort of line I draw with fan fiction. I want it true to the characters and the universe that they are in.
Now, I'm not saying that 9 versions of evanescence's 'Bring me to Life' is a good thing, but I am saying I don't think pop is the devil either. I also know that if I vidded a cool song and someone else vidded the exact same song in the same Fandom and both showed for the first time at the same con, I would be really, really bummed. Possibly bordering psycho-bummed, if I think about it. But that's something that's going to happen now and again, and all you can do is try to be gracious. We are a much larger community than we once were, with wide musical tastes Just choose songs with care, and understand that some songs will apply to multiple fandoms and be perfect for each.
(As an FYI, the vid pairs show was supposed to be discussed as a part of the song choice panel, but song choice went a different way.)
But that virginal audience thing wasn't the only issue that kept people away, though. That's just my issue of the moment. This show stirred up a lot of old, old, *old* agendas, and some people didn't come because of what had happened in the past. Also, I heard a few people talk about how they can't listen to a song they don't really care twice in a row, so those people stayed away as well.
Plus it was the first show on Saturday. It was tough getting up after Club Vivid. *g*
But for those that came, they were treated to an interesting show:
Something to Talk About by Low Down Father Fooler (CaliCrew), Scarecrow & Mrs. King
Something to Talk About by Carol S (Woad Society), Stargate
I have seen, oh, maybe 7 different vids to this song, and worked on at least one version, all of them slash, so it was interesting to see what was done with it for het. Carols was really funny if you'd seen the 7 or so slash vids that I had; the set up was exactly the same.
True Believer by Melissa (Chicago Loop), XFiles
True Believer by Nicole (Media Cannibals), Blake's 7
For me personally, I have a strong prejudice toward the Blake's 7 version of the song, but I can see exactly why the Xfiles vidder chose it for Scully. There are some unfortunate images choices for a few of the lyrics lines-- such as the shot of Scully looking at the xray on the line 'I'll get what I deserve', thereby implying that Scully thinks she deserves cancer for following Mulder -- that I feel undercut the story she was trying to tell, but the song itself is a good choice for the Mulder/Scully relationship.
Don't Put It in Your Mouth by DeeJay, Sandy and rache (Piddley Assed Productions, Professionals
Don't Put It in Your Mouth by Snoo (Chicago Loop), Due South
The pros vid was the one that Sandy and I learned to vid on. For years, I have felt that it was vastly inferior to the DS as the DS one is the fannish fit. (As an FYI, our pros one came out first, long before Due South was a twinkle in anyone's eye.) In a way, I was relieved to see them played together. I could see that both vids were funny, and that each had their own strengths and weaknesses. I liked that Cowley figured so prominently in the Pros version, providing a 'voice' and a frame -- a context -- for the lyrics being said. There wasn't quite as clear a voice in the Due South version, but it definitely had more variety in what *not* to put in your mouth.
Losing My Religion by Kandy Fong, S&H
Losing My Religion by Katherine (Media Cannibals) Homicide:LoTS
This was fascinating, as both vids were about Cops losing their badges. I'm afraid that I don't remember S&H enough to have the context down, but it told an interesting story anyway. The really fascinating thing for me, was how occasionally there were similar types of shots -- things like focusing on the badge at one particular lyric line -- but not so many that they seemed too similar. More like an occasional emotional echo, which heightened the sense of jeopardy based on what had happened 'before'.
In Your Eyes by Killa & Carol S (Woad Society), HL
In Your Eyes by Lynn C, Stargate
This is the song that I was talking about as being perfect for two different fandoms. There are two big threads that run through the song besides 'eyes': stars and forever. For Stargate, the stars are literal and the forever metaphorical. For Highlander, the stars are metaphorical and the forever literal. They were both made by master class vidders, and there is no way I would give up one or the other. I admit that seeing them together like this brought back a lot of the memory of the kerfluffle over the vids both premiering at the same Escapade. I felt such empathy for the vidders -- remember what I said about maybe getting a little psycho-bummed if that happed to me? -- and was I thrilled that they let their vids be seen together like this. They are both excellent vids.
Busted by Killa & Bone (Woad Society), Hard Core Logo
Busted by Katherine & Merry Lynne (Media Cannibals), Smallville
I think Busted is perfect for HCL, so I was a harder sell when the Smallville one came out. But looking on it with fresh eyes, I can see that Busted really works for Lex as well. That led to me thinking about the ways in which Joe Dick and Lex could be seen as similar, and what sorts of parallels they might have.
At that point, we ran out of time. I would have loved to see the Blake's 7 and Farscape versions of comedy tonight back to back; they have different versions of the same song (for B7, it's the old Zero Mostel version and for FS, it's the more modern Nathan Lane), and I wanted to see what had been done with them. My gut feeling is that they would be similar in an interesting fashion, as the shows were similar in interesting ways, and comparison/contrast is really one of my kinks.
I think that's it for my con reports. I'm really behind in working on my fiction, and I promised A that I would try to get a Pirates story done before the end of September.
I volunteered to sit door for this show, because I thought it would be interesting and I figured not a lot of people would go. From what I had heard muttered around before the panel, this was probably the most feared show that was presented, at least from the vidders as viewers perspective. (The premiers' show is the most anxiety producing show from the vidders as vidders perspective, at least IMO.) I heard a lot of people express different reasons for not going to it, but my rant is about how it was the most transgressive of the panels because it violated one of the old time vidding laws: thou shalt not vid a song that someone else has vided.
(The theory here is that there is only one chance for someone to see a vid for the first time, and that if the viewer has already been exposed to the song, they are forever spoiled. The next vid with that song will have something to compete with, and there's never a chance for that 'first time' again. And even if a song hasn't been vidded before, if it's received too much airplay, the audience is spoiled again. Only a virgin audience can truly appreciate a good vid.)
As you can tell, that's not one of my favorite beliefs. My own fannish belief system says that authenticity is what is important, and as long as a vidder can take a song and make it authentic to the characters and the fandom of their choice, that's baseline for me. I want vids with emotion, and I want them to feel authentic. It's the same sort of line I draw with fan fiction. I want it true to the characters and the universe that they are in.
Now, I'm not saying that 9 versions of evanescence's 'Bring me to Life' is a good thing, but I am saying I don't think pop is the devil either. I also know that if I vidded a cool song and someone else vidded the exact same song in the same Fandom and both showed for the first time at the same con, I would be really, really bummed. Possibly bordering psycho-bummed, if I think about it. But that's something that's going to happen now and again, and all you can do is try to be gracious. We are a much larger community than we once were, with wide musical tastes Just choose songs with care, and understand that some songs will apply to multiple fandoms and be perfect for each.
(As an FYI, the vid pairs show was supposed to be discussed as a part of the song choice panel, but song choice went a different way.)
But that virginal audience thing wasn't the only issue that kept people away, though. That's just my issue of the moment. This show stirred up a lot of old, old, *old* agendas, and some people didn't come because of what had happened in the past. Also, I heard a few people talk about how they can't listen to a song they don't really care twice in a row, so those people stayed away as well.
Plus it was the first show on Saturday. It was tough getting up after Club Vivid. *g*
But for those that came, they were treated to an interesting show:
Something to Talk About by Low Down Father Fooler (CaliCrew), Scarecrow & Mrs. King
Something to Talk About by Carol S (Woad Society), Stargate
I have seen, oh, maybe 7 different vids to this song, and worked on at least one version, all of them slash, so it was interesting to see what was done with it for het. Carols was really funny if you'd seen the 7 or so slash vids that I had; the set up was exactly the same.
True Believer by Melissa (Chicago Loop), XFiles
True Believer by Nicole (Media Cannibals), Blake's 7
For me personally, I have a strong prejudice toward the Blake's 7 version of the song, but I can see exactly why the Xfiles vidder chose it for Scully. There are some unfortunate images choices for a few of the lyrics lines-- such as the shot of Scully looking at the xray on the line 'I'll get what I deserve', thereby implying that Scully thinks she deserves cancer for following Mulder -- that I feel undercut the story she was trying to tell, but the song itself is a good choice for the Mulder/Scully relationship.
Don't Put It in Your Mouth by DeeJay, Sandy and rache (Piddley Assed Productions, Professionals
Don't Put It in Your Mouth by Snoo (Chicago Loop), Due South
The pros vid was the one that Sandy and I learned to vid on. For years, I have felt that it was vastly inferior to the DS as the DS one is the fannish fit. (As an FYI, our pros one came out first, long before Due South was a twinkle in anyone's eye.) In a way, I was relieved to see them played together. I could see that both vids were funny, and that each had their own strengths and weaknesses. I liked that Cowley figured so prominently in the Pros version, providing a 'voice' and a frame -- a context -- for the lyrics being said. There wasn't quite as clear a voice in the Due South version, but it definitely had more variety in what *not* to put in your mouth.
Losing My Religion by Kandy Fong, S&H
Losing My Religion by Katherine (Media Cannibals) Homicide:LoTS
This was fascinating, as both vids were about Cops losing their badges. I'm afraid that I don't remember S&H enough to have the context down, but it told an interesting story anyway. The really fascinating thing for me, was how occasionally there were similar types of shots -- things like focusing on the badge at one particular lyric line -- but not so many that they seemed too similar. More like an occasional emotional echo, which heightened the sense of jeopardy based on what had happened 'before'.
In Your Eyes by Killa & Carol S (Woad Society), HL
In Your Eyes by Lynn C, Stargate
This is the song that I was talking about as being perfect for two different fandoms. There are two big threads that run through the song besides 'eyes': stars and forever. For Stargate, the stars are literal and the forever metaphorical. For Highlander, the stars are metaphorical and the forever literal. They were both made by master class vidders, and there is no way I would give up one or the other. I admit that seeing them together like this brought back a lot of the memory of the kerfluffle over the vids both premiering at the same Escapade. I felt such empathy for the vidders -- remember what I said about maybe getting a little psycho-bummed if that happed to me? -- and was I thrilled that they let their vids be seen together like this. They are both excellent vids.
Busted by Killa & Bone (Woad Society), Hard Core Logo
Busted by Katherine & Merry Lynne (Media Cannibals), Smallville
I think Busted is perfect for HCL, so I was a harder sell when the Smallville one came out. But looking on it with fresh eyes, I can see that Busted really works for Lex as well. That led to me thinking about the ways in which Joe Dick and Lex could be seen as similar, and what sorts of parallels they might have.
At that point, we ran out of time. I would have loved to see the Blake's 7 and Farscape versions of comedy tonight back to back; they have different versions of the same song (for B7, it's the old Zero Mostel version and for FS, it's the more modern Nathan Lane), and I wanted to see what had been done with them. My gut feeling is that they would be similar in an interesting fashion, as the shows were similar in interesting ways, and comparison/contrast is really one of my kinks.
I think that's it for my con reports. I'm really behind in working on my fiction, and I promised A that I would try to get a Pirates story done before the end of September.
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-24 11:18 pm (UTC)and
That virginal audience thing wasn't the only issue that kept people away, though. That's just my issue. This show stirred up a lot of old, old, *old* agendas, and some people didn't come because of what had happened in the past.
You know, I pretty much missed *all* of this somehow - more evidence that I'm always out of the loop - and I'm totally glad, because this was one of my two favorite shows of the con (the other being Special FX). I think the idea that no two people ever can or should vid the same song is ludicrous, to put it plainly, and the evidence was there on display in this vid show. I heard people talking about the two vids to True Believer as though the Blake's 7 vid was the end all and be all of that song, and my reaction could not have been more different; since I've never seen Blake's 7, I thought the song was perfect for XF.
This is sort of a different era in vidding, for better or worse. Ten people could vid the same song in different fandoms and none of the other vidders would ever know, if they don't happen across that exact vid online somehow. Vidding has spread across the net and isn't confined to premieres at a few cons a year anymore. I do tend to agree that I'd rather not have someone see one of my vids and go - 'Damn! I could do that better!' and proceed to immediately make a vid of that song. Some of that is etiquette, and nothing more. But even so - I think the 'only one vid per song' idea is doomed, like it or not.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 07:04 am (UTC)I would also say that really, you should not remake a classic. *g* (Hmm, and now I wonder if maybe there should be a show and a panel on classic vids...)
I do think we all can agree, though, that song choice and the match of song to fandom is the single most important aspect of vidding, and that choice should not be made hap-hazarrdly.
Um, no.
Date: 2003-08-24 11:29 pm (UTC)While I do think my vid is now loose in the world and out of my hands, I am not sure I would have wanted this comparison. Mainly because it was so damned painful what happened that year.
I know you don't agree with the principle, and you didn't summarize all the perspectives on it, but my strong reservation about vidding another person's already used song is that song choice is one of the few dimensions of true creativity we have here. In the hands of a good vidder, it controls everything, and it shows your good taste. Using someone else's song, to me, diminishes the amount of creativity I can bring to a vid, and I have to work against the audience who has someone else's vid in their head, when they watch mine. It's a threat that can undermine my own work.
I also don't believe songs are perfect for multiple fandoms -- or if they are, they're generic and not as interesting. There are a lot of generic songs out there (I've used them and will use them, lacking better options). If "In Your Eyes" works equally well for Stargate and HL, then it's a generic song, too. That makes it a weaker song choice, for both of us. Which I'm sorry about.
I'm not saying your position (also the majority view) is wrong, I'm just trying one more time to say why I would rather not use someone else's song, if I can avoid it. Given the breadth of vidding fandom now, I've given up on even trying to avoid it, but I won't do it knowingly. Especially after what happened that year, which was a really, really unhappy accident.
I think a good vid pair would have been Tashery's B7 Wicked Game against mine and Gayle's for Wiseguy. We 3 did this knowing it was a comparison contest. Who knows how it turned out, though. We like them both. It's another generic song.
Also, you could have had the most excellent WG vid by Gayle for "Losing my Religion," which is my favorite for that song.
Lynn
Re: Um, no.
Date: 2003-08-24 11:34 pm (UTC)All I can say is - because I have no idea about what went on behind the scenes before this con - seeing the two vids together just made me love each of them even more than I did already. I think the vidders' perspectives, and the viewers', are often quite different. I really enjoyed this show, and I'm kind of sad, I guess, that there were so many issues behind the scenes.
Re: Um, no.
Date: 2003-08-25 07:54 am (UTC)Yeah, the vid pairs show could have been called 'the show of pain' as this is such a emotional issue for many of the vidders involved. I know that what happened was very upsetting for everyone, and I appreciate your willingness to give your take on it. I think you did an excellent job of laying out your position.
re: Tashery's wicked game. I think the comparison would be cool; I don't have copies of Tashery's, and I would love to see it again.
re: Gayle's 'Losing my religion' I think the VJ was going for the parellelism between the two vids, which as I said was very cool for me as a viewer, but I don't know for certain. You could ask Zen about it. I think her lj is
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 03:50 am (UTC)My own fannish belief system says that authenticity is what is important, and as long as a vidder can take a song and make it authentic to the characters and the fandom of their choice, that's baseline for me. I want vids with emotion, and I want them to feel authentic. It's the same sort of line I draw with fan fiction. I want it true to the characters and the universe that they are in.
Just, me too, really. *g*
Re: the two "In Your Eyes" vids, I never really thought about why the song feels so different for me for each vid, but your pointing out the essential literalness and metaphoricalness of the song's meaning for each vid makes perfect sense. Thank you for making it click in my head -- so often you make things come together in a new way in my brain, and I dig that. :-)
Bring Me to Life is the devil, though. Just sayin. *bg*
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 08:00 am (UTC)Hey, you get no argument from me on this one you know. *g*
Thanks!
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 04:58 am (UTC)Me too. Me too. I believe that an artist can take any subject and make it her own. How many Madonnas (not the singer) are out there? From Raphael to Michelangelo to Dali, it's the same subject matter, but it's the artist who makes it into something new over and over again. Inversely, any song (from Evanescence to Oysterband) can be generic crap in the hands of a crappy vidder. It's always, IMO, what the artist does with her media--not the media itself.
When I started vidding, I balked against the "ownership" of songs, and my feelings have only gotten stronger on the matter. Yes, I've had songs ripped right out from under me, and I've bitched mightily about it, but my bitching in no way negates the other vidder's right to vid whatever she wants to vid. And I'll vid the song anyway. (Which leads me to another related subject--comparative vidding--and I have a lot of thoughts on that, but not enough coffee yet to articulate them without embarrassing myself. :) )
Thanks for ranting. You should do it more often.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 10:21 am (UTC)Yes, I agree. It is about the artist and the media -- but it's also about the audience. I'm not the type that believes in the whole 'the audience is tabula rosa' approach to vidding; I think that's asking too much of an audience, to expect them to be completely blank slates for each and every vid that they are shown. I don't expect it in fanfiction, and I don't feel that I should expect it in vidding either. I think that part of the vidders job is to try and make their vid engrossing even if someone has seen another version of the song before.
So to me, it's not about ownership. I think that attitude is one of the things that's had to change with the modern era, when vidders spring up on their own across the world. Rather, I think that there are variations and sub-issues and concerns that get glossed over under the 'ownership' rant. I think we can be strong enough vidders that it's not going to destroy us if someone vids the same song. However, I'm not saying that that will be easy.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 09:04 am (UTC)I don't know what went down, or why and how the idea of "ownership" came about, or even when (and I've only been watching vids since the early 1990s, starting in anime fandom, and then spreading out to Cally Crew and other fannish vids) but from the POV of someone who isn't as deeply involved in the vidder culture--and is more of an audience member--it just seems foolish to me to feel hurt if another vidder uses the same song, particularly if it's in a completely diff. fandom and there is clearly no malicious intent. Especially if it is simply a case of two vidders hearing a song, and choosing it because each believes it fits that show and those characters, independently. I just always figured that each vid should be judged and appreciated on its own merits. And I had seen both the B7 "True Believer" and the pros "Don't Put it In Your Mouth" before Melissa and Amanda made their XF and DS vids. But I enjoyed all four vids regardless of familiarity with the song, and in fact, enjoyed comparing and contrasting them (even tho I'm not as familiar with Pros and B7 as I am XF and DS).
I guess the thing that weirds me is the idea that it's "common knowledge" not to use another vidder's song--that there is some kind of hard-and-fast code of behaviour that all vidders are expected to know and follow, particularly when vidders are scattered across the globe, usually working independently of one another, and not always attending the same cons, being on the same mailing lists, etc. It would be like expecting all authors across the globe to keep tabs on who is using what plot, and drop any story they might write which has a similar plot to another author's story. It just can't be done. And I'm not so sure it should be. I mean, were that the case, the only two Shakespeare plays we'd ever have would be "The Tempest" and "Taming of the Shrew" (okay, I may be blanking, but those are the only two that leap out at me that aren't based on an existing myth or history). Or because Picasso used the colour blue so well, no painter is allowed to dip their brush in the same colour, but must make do with the rest of the rainbow.
Look.
Date: 2003-08-25 09:25 am (UTC)If you read my post, you will understand that *I* don't want to re-use a song, knowingly, if I think I can find another one, probably a much more obscure song, that I can do something clever with (hopefully). If a vidder doesn't listen to enough music that she can't come up with a new song on her own, for her fandom, then I genuinely question whether she should be vidding at all. But in vidding, like in writing, there are people who aren't trying to challenge themselves all the time and do work as original as they can. Lots of people are just throwing stuff out and having a good time, and it's not Art. That's fine.
I also recognize that a lot of other people don't think it's uninteresting to use a song that someone else used, knowingly. My friends have done it -- and in one case, when a friend mentioned re-using an old song I had used, I said, "yeah, you know what, it works much better for your fandom. I totally see that." It IS a kind of generic song, but the gist did work better for her scene. She STILL had to deal with the fact that a lot of people see my vid when they hear the lyrics, but hey, that's her choice going in. I wouldn't have done it, but then I'm not as secure a vidder as she is.
It's my creative position, this is all I'm saying. I'm entitled to hold it, and I wish I were entitled to have people not reduce it to the lamest possible, most illogical terms. It's considerate to try to understand complexity in someone'e argument, even if you decide you don't agree with it.
I'm sorry, taraljc, this isn't just about your post -- it's about every damn debate in fandom, for me.
And I still wish I had been asked or told that my vid got compared to theirs yet again, without me being there to hear it.
Lynn
Re: Look.
Date: 2003-08-25 10:10 am (UTC)My apologies--I wasn't specifically referring to your post, and I'm sorry if I over-simplified something that obviously means a great deal to you. I was just responding to the thread at large (which, having missed the song choice panel, was my first exposure to the debate in question), and just trying to throw my 2¢ in... Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.
Re: Look.
Date: 2003-08-25 10:34 am (UTC)In vidding it's even worse -- since so few of us actually agree on aesthetic judgments most of the time, it's about defending more than just an individual artistic position, but a whole take on the activity of vidding. I've recognized I'm a dinosaur destined to die on a beach sometime soon, though :-) I just hope it's tropical, and there's rum buried there.
Lynn
no subject
Date: 2003-08-25 09:53 am (UTC)I don't think so at all, and you know how I know? *g* The vidshows and panels were all voted on -- that's how they ended up in the schedule. With the exception of the Vidding 101 panel, which was included by the concom, all the programming was determined by internet voting.
I also really like seeing two vids to the same song. I wouldn't want a steady diet of that, mind you, but if the vids are strong enough (and I think all of those Zen chose were) I think it's something that a lot of people find interesting.
Which doesn't change how some people feel about it, of course -- vidding can be as emotional as any creative endeavor, and we can't always help how we feel. I don't really enjoy having something I created compared unfavorably to somebody else's work, but you have to keep each person's opinion in perspective, I think, and learn from what they say, if you think there's something valuable there to learn.
Anyway, no, I don't think you're in the minority.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 07:05 am (UTC)Huh. That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that expectation, and while I don't want to speak for Laura, I doubt she was either — I'm pretty sure she would have mentioned it to me.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 07:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 10:59 am (UTC)Hmm. Maybe the vidshow VJs should be the ones to moderate the corresponding panels...
no subject
Date: 2003-08-26 11:54 am (UTC)Personally, I think it's better to have separate VJs and moderators, to get more voices into the mix, although I do think it would be interesting for VJs to share their reasons for choosing the vids they included, either in the panel or in the vidshow itself.