Post-VVC discussion

[wickedwords]

I always freeze up when my vids are discussed at vividcon. Every Sunday of the con after the premiere vids are shown, there is a discussion of what worked and what didn't for the people who saw the show -- which would be everyone at the con. *g* It's considered polite for the vidder to remain silent and listen to the reaction, rather than explain their vids and what their intent was; it's considered really bad form for the vidder to argue about how wrong someone's comment was. Other viewers can argue, but it's not the vidder's role to explain things, and they pretty much just have to suck it up.

Which means that I pretty much go tharn with big anime eyes while I am there, and come home with an immediate desire to explain myself. And I just realized that now I can.


To set the stage here -- I joined in the vid late. Zoe gave a cattle call asking for someone to beta her vid draft for her, and I jumped at the chance. I watched what she'd done, adored what I read as the theme, and sent her a few suggestions for what I thought could improve the vid.

The vid grabbed me so strongly that I think those suggestions took about 3 pages of text to make; Zoe then asked me to collaborate with her on it, as I think my enthusiasm was pretty darn apparent in all those suggestions I made.

First off, let me discuss song choice and why I think this song is a perfect match for the universe at this time. Hallelujah, to me, is a very personal song -- it's quiet, there's one singer, one instrument -- and it's a very spiritual song, a song about faith.

Now, faith can be both epic and personal, so it needs a fandom that can combine the two aspects, which is why I think it works well for Atlantis. SGA combines both -- sometimes better, sometimes worse -- and what's enjoyable for me is that not everything is on the grand scale, that the human scale can work just as well, and that's a favorite combination.

So, the vid z_rayne and I made uses the epic nature of the universe to tell a story about Rodney's personal faith -- his faith in ancient technology, his faith in science, and his faith in himself. The ancient tech metaphor is brought out right at the beginning, with Rodney touching the keyboard of the ancient DHD, and having the chair light up when Carson sits in it on the 'that David played and it pleased the lord" line.

Rodney's faith is in turn juxtaposed with John's atheism -- when he comes to the project, he knows nothing about ancient tech, and has no faith in it. We start showing that aspect of John with the "but you don't really care for music, do you?" He's isolated and outside of this group of pilgrims -- hence the shot in the corridor, the shot of the coin flip -- and he learns about the things they believe in that first verse. He's taught about their faith, and in that first segment, he comes to believe, and he acts on that belief, tying his life in with theirs. And in that, there is salvation.

So, second verse -- "Your faith was strong but you needed proof" -- John with the jumper. John's the embodiment of ancient tech for the scientists, their living proof that their faith is not in vein. His gene is stronger than anyone else's and he can do more with it; but he himself needs more proof.

And what better proof than an actual ancient?

But faith in the ancients isn't the same as faith in the technology they left behind, and in worshiping her, he breaks faith with Rodney, as Rodney is really clear that he isn't going to put faith in an individual other than himself, and he doesn't trust it when John does.

You see where we're going with this, right? *g* Rodney realizes that his definition of faith now includes John as well as himself, and we get the first iteration of 'broken hallelujah', where the joy is undercut with sorrow, the realization that salvation doesn't always come without a personal cost. Their faith cannot keep them safe.

Rodeny sees that and is desperate for something that will ensure their salvation, which is the verse with the ZPM -- ancient technology will save them all -- but he loses the device, and now has to rely on the things that haven't yet failed him - his faith in science, his faith in John, and his faith in himself.

And just as the 'baffled king' Summer became the sacrifice in Rising, John was to be the sacrifice at the end of Siege II while Rodney took his faith and crafted the instrument that would be used to sacrifice John. Thus we see through Rodney's eyes the transition of John-the-atheist into a man of faith, a faith stronger than Rodney's own.

Obviously, from the reaction at VVC, the faith metaphor doesn't jump out to others the way it did to me. Then again, that discussion of faith -- in science, in ancient tech, in each other -- is something that I see continuing on in the show too, and it's one of my favorite elements. I agree that while Atlantis might not have enough footage to have made an epic story, my feeling is that there was more than enough for this small, personal one. It's just not the vid that was expected.

Comments

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

This is so cool -- thank you for posting this.

I like the VVC discussion format (which parallels all of the writing workshops I've taken and taught) inasmuch as once the creator is able to speak up and say, "no, no, you didn't get it, here's what I was thinking" the conversation changes radically and there's the danger of a fruitless argument about what was or wasn't there in the work. As a writer, I've learned more from keeping my mouth shut and listening to what people saw in my work than I ever could have expected.

That said...as a vid-watcher, I love hearing what was going on for you as you worked on the vid, and I love hearing about what you wanted the vid to do. So I'm glad you posted this commentary.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I agree totally about the creator needed to stay aside for the initial discussion, and let the viewers talk about what they saw; that doesn't lessen the fact that it's really hard to do. *g* It did give me a chance to think on what people had said, and ruminate on what those comments could really be pointing to, rather than focus on my initial emotional reaction and need to defend my work. I finally decided that people were asking for me to explain what I was thinking, that they had had a hard time 'reading' the vid, even the ones with exposure to the show and the fandom. So I felt okay with trying to explain the why.

[barkley.livejournal.com]

I agree totally about the creator needed to stay aside for the initial discussion, and let the viewers talk about what they saw; that doesn't lessen the fact that it's really hard to do.

I know! I begged Sandy to tell me her thoughts on my vid, and the first thing I did was explain my clip choice in the one she had an issue with, and now I want to go back, erase time and say, "Thanks!" instead of "Thanks! I did that because..." *g*

But I rewatched three vids last night (limited time) and that was one of them. I just had to see it again because I love it so. I totally got the first faith part with John, the chair, the jumper. I didn't follow it through to the rest of the vid yet because my...attention span almost never processes whole songs at once. So I sort of skimmed over the rest of your post up there because I still intend to watch it sort of fresh again.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Man, "I did that because..." is such a conversation killer. And yet, I so, so want to use it all the darn time. I completely forgive you for it. *g*

It is so cool to me that you caught the John/faith/chair/jumper connection. We worked our butts off to try to make that as clear as possible, so hearing that makes me feel pretty good about it. I do like the vid and how it turned out; don't worry about reading the rest of the post as I really don't want to influence you, which is why this is posted to my LJ and not to Zoe's LJ or any of the vidding journals or lists. Those get to have their own conversations, and they can read my post on intentions or not as they so choose. The separation of creator and creation like this is workin' for me, at least for the moment. *g*

[mmmchelle.livejournal.com]

I wasn't at VVC, but I watched the vid obsessively repeatedly this morning. I adore it.

The faith metaphor made perfect sense to me, although I didn't catch all of the nuances you described. But I definitely got John as the outsider, not sharing Rodney's faith in Atlantis and what they could do there, and his acquiring of faith, not necessarily in the Ancients, but in Rodney and himself, and the rest of the expedition.

But it's too late, and all of their hallelujahs are now broken.

As for people thinking Atlantis doesn't have enough footage for an epic story--pshaw. The first season alone is epic.

BTW, did you see Danvers' discussion of this song a few weeks ago and how perfect she feels it is for Atlantis and John and Rodney?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

You are so sweet, hon. I'm glad you like the vid. *g*

And yes! You got the gist of what we are trying to say, which makes me very happy. The vid turned out to be more of a living room vid than I thought it was, which is fine for me. I just didn't know that until it came up at the con.

And no! I had no clue anyone discussed the song at all. We had to have the vid done...mid-june? I think, because Zoe was going out of town.

[mmmchelle.livejournal.com]

It was a fairly recent discussion, and it struck me as an interesting example of the hive mind at work, since you guys were probably done with the vid when she mentioned the song.

And you are all right. It is a wonderful song for Atlantis, and now I'm going to download the vid on my work computer so I can watch it on a higher quality monitor. /g/

I was planning a post on my favorite of the VVC vids I've seen so far, and this was at the top of my list.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Well, cool! I love it when the hive mind works like that. *g* And I am very glad you like it.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

I'd already told Zoe how much I loved the vid and I feel I needed to tell you as well. And I love your explanations of how you saw the vid (b/c in a way you are both reader and creator :-) It made perfect sense, and while I sdon't think I could have articulated it as well, you decribed the emotions I had when viewing it!!!

[which makes me wonder, is this a vid that works better for diehard fans? i remember a cool discussion (and it might have been by you?) last year after vividcon about vid literacy...]

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I do feel like I am in a unique position on the vid, because I got to read that first draft, see a theme I loved, and worked to make that theme stand out. It was the core of the story for me, and I really want people to see that. But really, posting why I think my own vid is deeply cool? Feels really, really weird and egotistical to me.

And yes, so doing it, 'cuz it was Zoe's concept first, and I got to hang on for the ride.

Transitioning to the second part of your comment, let me lay out the three reactions that I heard at the con:

1) Resistance to the idea - the song is overused to begin with, the show doesn't have the depth to support the song, there haven't been enough episodes to do the big drama that the song requires. These feelings were expressed by vidders and non-vidders, who had exposure to the show and those that did not. In general, they came in with pre-set expectations about what the vid should be about, and this vid didn't meet those expectations.

2) The vid has multiple levels to it to make it more accessible. For those people casually familiar with the universe, it can be read as a simple John/Rodney vid, about just their relationship and without the faith component at all. I thought that this would be the more common reading for people with limited exposure to the fandom, and was surprised at the number of people with broad exposure for whom this was all that they saw. Seriously, there were people that I expected to be able to read it at the deeper level who didn't, and I don't know if that's the vid or simply that people were just not in that head-space at the con. It's got depth, but it's not flashy about it, so maybe that was just the wrong tack to take for VVC.

3) A few people mentioned that they found it deeply satisfying though they didn't know why, and they mentioned this privately to me though it never came out at the big discussion at the con. This is the group that I really, really want to profile, as they are obviously my audience and I haven't a clue about what defines them.

And, uh, yeah. Reading levels. That so would be me.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

you just coin the coolest ideas.,..i mean, there are so many thoughts that immediately make me go to you (potlatch and 3 point, of course, but see, ithat post last year made a *deep* impression on me :-)

re song. i think it's a very ambitious song, b/c it's often uiused and contains a certain amount ofbuilt in pathos...and to vid it straight up dioes require a lot of serious emotions that can turn...but even though the show often refuses to engage in it, i think it does contain it (and that's the beauty of ff, that it can explore what it really means for john to have woken up an enemy that will kill a galaxy etc. etc....)

i watched it quite a few times and wanted to give zoe my reactions back when, but unlike you, i really coldn't express them. i liked it a lot, but couldn't say what it did...part of that is my newbie status, but part might be the vid itself...so yes, i think one viewing in the con setting might have been difficult!

and please, talk all about why your vids are cool!!! :D

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I think we were the first people to vid angst in Sentinel too. Again, a show that fans talked about having no depth to it that we could sit down and pull out threads of personal pain, not to mention the horror underneath it all. It's one of the things that makes vidding fun for me, being able to take the visuals from a show and bring out the stuff that's hidden in it, reveal the ressonance and depth that keep me watching even if the show itself does nothing with it. There's always more in there than we might think. *g*

[zoerayne]

I feel bad that you're having to deal with crit on the vid when (from my perspective, at least) you contributed the majority of what made it good. I'm also very aware that I had the final physical control, so I worry that I didn't allow you--either through my natural assertiveness *g* or just through your lack of access to the physical equipment--to make the changes you wanted to.

That said, it's a vid I'm very proud of. I think we did a great job of accomplishing what we set out to, of saying what we meant. And yes, it's very much a living-room vid, I think. I hope you're as happy with it as I am.

Be sure to check out the comments we've been getting in my LJ, too.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Don't stress it hon! Seriously. I love being able to talk about stuff like it and analyze things, and that's what I get to do for fun. Working with you, I got to be in the unique position of being able to be both viewer and creator, so I feel pretty happy about being able to analyze our work. It's fun for me as long as I don't have to sit in front of other people and be looked at the ways it's done at a con. I think we did a great job of telling the story we wanted to tell, and now I want to figure out about the audience reactions too.

'cuz I like to find patterns and make graphs and analyze things. It's just what I do. *g*

[zoerayne]

'cuz I like to find patterns and make graphs and analyze things. It's just what I do. *g*

That's one of the cutest things about you, you know. *g*

[copracat]

we see through Rodney's eyes the transition of John-the-atheist into a man of faith, a faith stronger than Rodney's own.

After your commentary I didn't think the vid could possibly live up to my expectation.

But yes, it did.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Oh, good! See, I am worried in a way about putting this out there before people who weren't at the con had a chance to watch it, and yet I was so unsatisfied by the discussion of the vid at VVC that I wanted to address the two big points that people had brought up. So the coversation is here, separate from the vid, so people can read up on this stuff or not, as they so chose.

Meanwhile -- you liked it. Yay!

[faos.livejournal.com]

Count me in for that third group -- I thought it was lovely, and it struck a strong emotional chord in me, but I have a hard time putting exactly what I was feeling into words. I largely missed the faith metaphor; one frequent problem I have with vids is that I'm terrible at deciphering lyrics in songs. I got the chorus, and a few phrases here and there, but not much else. I'm more of a visual person.

And given that, I completely got the idea of John as being the outsider who is brought into the fold, and then becomes the sacrifice, and Rodney's regret that he's the one who brought John into this. I think I was reading the emotion as "trust," which is close to but not exactly the same as faith, in my mind. John learns to trust Rodney, and the other people in Atlantis, and himself -- and that trust in himself is what makes him willing to go on a suicide run, because he believes that between Rodney and himself, they can -win-. Rodney knows John's right, but is less reconciled to the cost. Anyway, that's how I "read" the vid on the initial viewing.

The one thing I really liked about this vid and merry's "Hello" was that they emphasized the horror of the situation; the show often seems to put more weight on the adventure and the snark (which I love!) but if you step back, these folks are in a very scary place and there's a good chance they will all die. Now, there's a reason the show doesn't hammer the sheer direness home all the time -- it'd be unwatchably bleak -- but it's nice to see it acknowledged and explored in vids.

I have no idea if this makes any sense at all. Mostly I just want to see it again!

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Faith or Trust, I don't think the label really matters; what matters to me is the emotional resonance that it creates. So it sounds like you were able to do a more advanced reading of the vid on the inital viewing, so yay! I'm really glad you liked it.

[blacksquirrel.livejournal.com]

I missed the first half of the vid discussion but heard later that there had been a cetain amount of criticism, so I wanted to drop in my two cents. I felt that the distinctions you outline here between Rodney and John were clear from the opening lines and that the song choice perfectly expressed a sense of awe and wonder regarding the beauty of advanced technology, but also its incredible destructive power. Really wonderful for people each individually trying to adapt to and understand such an amazing and terrifying new world.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Cool! I'm glad that you liked it and thought it was claer. One of the interesting things for me about using the season one arc is showing how the shininess wears off on the technology, and how they get ground down to absolute bone-numbing weariness through their battles with the wraith.

The crit wasn't that bad this year, mostly due, I think, to the need to cut off conversation before a dog-pile could happen. It is tough to listen to many repetitions of 'I didn't get it', but that was the truth of it; people don't expect the fandom to have that emotional weight to carry off the song (and withough Rodney, I'm not sure that it would; he is so woobie-tastic in showing emotional pain that I don't think it's a problem). My own feeling was that the crit wasn't really about our vid at all, but about the expectations people brought with them. Which is interesting on an interpersonal level, but gave me nothing to work with.

[blacksquirrel.livejournal.com]

showing how the shininess wears off on the technology, and how they get ground down to absolute bone-numbing weariness through their battles with the wraith

Oh my yes. On the other hand, I also love how each new discovery and piece of technology can still inspire such excitement.

he is so woobie-tastic in showing emotional pain

Which is in such contrast to SG1 where everyone is so controlled and interior. I just love that there's someone on Atlantis to shout and rave "We're all going to die!" and "I'm traumatized for life!" because, not only would that be me, but sometimes SG1 seemed just a little too effortless.

Which is interesting on an interpersonal level, but gave me nothing to work with

Sadly, my "squeee! I loved it" probably isn't terribly helpful either, but since I'm a vid watcher rather than vid maker, it's all I've got. Those con feedback sessions are strange because the bar is so high, it's hard to speak up when such amazing artists are talking about aesthetics and technique on a level that can't be casually attained. At the end off the day though, I figure that the whole point of all that technique is to create a viewing experience, so "I really enjoyed it" must be worthwhile too.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Sadly, my "squeee! I loved it" probably isn't terribly helpful either

Oh, different things, hon! The vid show review is specific, in-person crit, and that's different from your feedback, which, you know, makes me feel warm and connected and like I'm not doing this all on my own in the middle of a desert. "I really enjoyed it" is high praise, as it means I did something right.

[blacksquirrel.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm glad to hear it helps, and thank you so much for such a wonderful vid. Cheers to many more in the future

[the-green-sheep.livejournal.com]

Oh. I feel dense for not getting the whole faith thing, but now that you've kindly explained it, I rewatched the vid, and if it was powerful before, now it's a thousand times so. I enjoyed it immensely. I'll probably rewatch it many, many times. Good job, you gals.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I felt a little weird posting about the vid, as somewhere along the way, I picked up the feeling that if I have to explain things, that means I didn't do my job well; yet that clashes with the idea of teaching people how to read vids, and all sorts of stuff like that. So I'm glad you feel this enhanced your enjoyment of the vid. Knowing that makes me happy. Thanks!

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

I've only just now read this, and please take my reaction with the understanding that I've been crazy busy and exhausted since I got back from Vividcon and so I'm working on my memory of one viewing. (Wherein I certainly did not get the faith aspect, but then frankly I am never going to get that kind of thing on one viewing and am lucky to get it in five.)

Anyway, what fascinates me about this is that we clearly have completely different sets of feelings that are inspired by the song, totally independent of any different feelings about the source. For me, Hallelujah is not, at heart, a song about finding faith at all; it's a song about faith unrewarded, about... becoming resigned to the way life is, and it's profoundly bitter. Look, the song of love goes like this: you fall in love and she destroys you, I know all about it because I've been there, you still kind of believe but I know love always sucks in the end, we were amazing together once but now we're coming apart, maybe God exists but if he does this whole "love" thing is definitely a cruel joke of his.

Hallelujah, you sadistic SOB.

So I don't think you could have told me the story you wanted to tell with this particular song--our interpretation of the music was just so different, and because I wasn't coming to the song as a blank slate you couldn't get your interpretation in past mine.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

See, and I think this works with what we have for the Rodney thread as the main POV character. As the story is told from Rodney's POV, it goes from bright shiny neat things to the utter destruction of everything he holds dear. It's cruel and bitter and harsh, and you're always betrayed by what you've trusted.

So, the Rodney thread? Loss and pain, not finding faith. In fact, that's more like faith destroyed, the broken Hallelujah.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Oh, and so thank you for posting this--not only interesting to see what you were doing, but it gave me a chance to go back and really think about my opinion of the song, which I enjoyed.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I am all about the thinky. *g* I love to analyze things, probably a good deal more than is good for me.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think perhaps you have found the right hobby.

[skeddy-kat.livejournal.com]

I just found the vid a short while ago. I was looking for a good place to leave feedback, I hope you get this - even though it's way after this discussion.

Fan vids are entertaining and amusing. Sometimes they are funny. Sometimes they attempt to be emotionally manipulating - sometimes they even succeed. What they almost never are (for me) is truly moving. Hallelujah was moving. It's not just the song, although it's a great song and I'd never heard it before. It's not just the show. I love the show, but it doesn't move to tears. The combination of words, music, and the images you put with them do.

I find myself playing it over and over. I hear it in my head during the day (and now my brain is sticking images with it them as well). The whole piece is beautiful. I couldn't tell you exactly why it affects me so much, but it does. I just thought I'd let you know.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

All feedback is good feedback, and comments after the fact as some of the best, as it means that whatever you did was remembered, which is one of the highest complements I think you can get.

Not only that, but the vid *moved* you. Hearing that is the icing on the cake for me, and I am so glad you decided to tell me that. Thank you.